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Author Topic: Shower thought. Bitcoin ETF bad?  (Read 439 times)
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September 09, 2019, 08:29:57 AM
 #1

Shouldn't the communty discourage the creation of anything that gives up the custody of Bitcoin to third parties?

Although it might be good for its price, would it be good for Bitcoin as a censorship-resistant hard money?

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September 09, 2019, 09:14:44 AM
Merited by NeuroticFish (1)
 #2

Shouldn't the communty discourage the creation of anything that gives up the custody of Bitcoin to third parties?
Opinions are all over the place. Personally? Though I'm never planning on using it, I'm completely fine with it. More market liquidity is a win.

Although it might be good for its price, would it be good for Bitcoin as a censorship-resistant hard money?
A Bitcoin ETF defeats the purpose of being your own bank, because you're effectively letting another company hold the funds for you. It's pretty much an oxymoron. But the thing is, not everyone that buys bitcoin is buying it for financial freedom/sovereignty. Some are simply buying because they're betting that the price will go up in a certain timespan. Here's where the Bitcoin ETF comes in: the investor wouldn't need to risk holding their own funds and securing it on their own. Instead, they let a company that supposedly knows how to secure the funds, hold it for them.

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September 09, 2019, 09:33:22 AM
Merited by cr1776 (1), ETFbitcoin (1), pooya87 (1), mk4 (1), ene1980 (1)
 #3

The freedom to do what one wants with one's bitcoins necessarily includes the freedom to give custody of them to a third party. Some (such as those who are unwilling or unable to safely manage their own private keys) will find such an arrangement beneficial. And some will not benefit from such an arrangement, and choose not to use it. That's what freedom means.

Will pretend to do unspeakable things (while actually eating a taco) for bitcoins: 1K6d1EviQKX3SVKjPYmJGyWBb1avbmCFM4
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September 09, 2019, 09:42:18 AM
 #4

Although it might be good for its price, would it be good for Bitcoin as a censorship-resistant hard money?
A Bitcoin ETF defeats the purpose of being your own bank, because you're effectively letting another company hold the funds for you. It's pretty much an oxymoron. But the thing is, not everyone that buys bitcoin is buying it for financial freedom/sovereignty. Some are simply buying because they're betting that the price will go up in a certain timespan. Here's where the Bitcoin ETF comes in: the investor wouldn't need to risk holding their own funds and securing it on their own. Instead, they let a company that supposedly knows how to secure the funds, hold it for them.
[/quote]

You explained Bitcoin ETF propose very good, however, can we say for sure that such a company will definitely safe Bitcoin funds and be able to increase its amount?
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September 09, 2019, 10:03:18 AM
 #5

The freedom to do what one wants with one's bitcoins necessarily includes the freedom to give custody of them to a third party. Some (such as those who are unwilling or unable to safely manage their own private keys) will find such an arrangement beneficial. And some will not benefit from such an arrangement, and choose not to use it. That's what freedom means.

I absolutely agree with you. Freedom means that you can do with your bitcoins what you want
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September 09, 2019, 10:35:44 AM
 #6

Does the crypto community need to discourage crypto users to not hold coins on crypto exchanges or online wallets? This is one of the most frequently given tips on this forum, but it does not affect people's awareness too much when it comes to security of their coins. Traders want to trade anytime, they need coins on exchanges, some others just aren't ready to be their own bank.

Bitcoin ETF is simply impossible to prevent, regardless of what crypto community think about it. For most it is still something positive, because most think only about price, and the prevailing opinion is that Bitcoin ETF will be something that will push the price to six-digit numbers.

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September 09, 2019, 10:49:21 AM
 #7

"Bad" is a matter of perspective.  I'm not personally a fan of traditional finance getting involved, because it's not something that I can see bringing much benefit to the average user.  ETFs are a plaything for "fat cats" and a mirage of an oasis for middlemen.  I find it's generally speculators who are most keenly interested by the prospect of ETFs.  For the people who care more about freedom and censorship resistance, there's really not much to get excited about.

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September 09, 2019, 11:36:47 AM
 #8

Shouldn't the communty discourage the creation of anything that gives up the custody of Bitcoin to third parties?

Although it might be good for its price, would it be good for Bitcoin as a censorship-resistant hard money?

Most people give custody of their Bitcoins into the hands of shady exchanges everday. At least a government-aproved ETF would have way higher amount of regulation and surveliance (which is something you want, if you are going to give custody of your coins for whatever reason).

On the big picture it's irrelevant for Bitcoin itself, you have always been free to keep coins on your own or appoint someone to do it for you. It may skyrocket the price in relation to fiat due the easy of access for big creditors.
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September 09, 2019, 11:54:40 AM
 #9

Shouldn't the communty discourage the creation of anything that gives up the custody of Bitcoin to third parties?

Although it might be good for its price, would it be good for Bitcoin as a censorship-resistant hard money?

Most people give custody of their Bitcoins into the hands of shady exchanges everday. At least a government-aproved ETF would have way higher amount of regulation and surveliance (which is something you want, if you are going to give custody of your coins for whatever reason).

On the big picture it's irrelevant for Bitcoin itself, you have always been free to keep coins on your own or appoint someone to do it for you. It may skyrocket the price in relation to fiat due the easy of access for big creditors.

My impression was that ETFs abandoned any pretence of custody?  Exchanges at least give you the option to withdraw the BTC to a wallet you control (assuming you manage to do it before they get hacked, anyway).  But with ETFs, all you're ever likely to physically possess is a slip of paper detailing what the basket of assets are that you're betting on.  When you cash out, the only thing they're going to give you is fiat.  You're never going to see the bitcoins.

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September 09, 2019, 11:58:51 AM
 #10

ETF might be useful for those ordinary people that have not enough knowledge to store their bitcoins in a safe wallet. But generally speaking, I don't think ETF is helpful for cryptocurrencies world. And the reason is simple. ETF acts as a third party and we use bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies to eliminate third parties.
Some people might think that as ETF provide an easy method to buy bitcoin, it's useful. But it's wrong. These people are those who have not enough knowledge and it's better to be out of the market. Bitcoin market doesn't need them as they help third parties get involved in our transactions.
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September 09, 2019, 12:02:43 PM
 #11

I'm also not so fan on Bitcoin ETF. Because the decentralization of Bitcoin itself became useless for me.
Look, even Andreas Antonopoulos against with Bitcoin ETF, featured on his youtube video here :
Bitcoin Q&A: Why I'm against ETFs

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September 09, 2019, 12:22:07 PM
 #12

At the end of the day, the ultimate choice is left to the individual Bitcoin owners themselves. They could easily choose to take care of their own portfolio alone. I myself would choose it.

It makes me wonder though, is this what is meant by Bitcoin adoption hitting the main road? And is it really nice for Bitcoin to go fully mainstream?

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September 09, 2019, 12:29:18 PM
 #13

Shouldn't the communty discourage the creation of anything that gives up the custody of Bitcoin to third parties?

Although it might be good for its price, would it be good for Bitcoin as a censorship-resistant hard money?

From the speculators point of view,ETF approval would be great,because it will bring fresh money to the BTC market,thus increasing the price.For some cryptography fanatics and libertarians,ETF approval is bad,because it puts more bitcoins under the control of the big banks,hedge funds and corporations and turns bitcoin into nothing more than a financial instrument in the dirty hands of Wall Street.Who's right?I don't know.We will find out in the near future.

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September 09, 2019, 03:16:03 PM
Last edit: September 09, 2019, 03:46:56 PM by franky1
Merited by Darker45 (1)
 #14

Shouldn't the communty discourage the creation of anything that gives up the custody of Bitcoin to third parties?

Although it might be good for its price, would it be good for Bitcoin as a censorship-resistant hard money?

Most people give custody of their Bitcoins into the hands of shady exchanges everday. At least a government-aproved ETF would have way higher amount of regulation and surveliance (which is something you want, if you are going to give custody of your coins for whatever reason).

an ETF is NOT where you buy bitcoin and put them into a trusted custodian..
an ETF IS where a company buys thier own bitcoins. vaults them up as collateral of the company(assets) and then sell shares of their assets.
customers/investors of ETF's do not own the company nor bitcoins. they own shares that represent an allotment of coins.

the benefits people see is that instead of random people buying small amounts of coins on exchanges(not much movement in price) large ETF's buy large lumps of coins which can move the price.

the disadvantages people see is if the large ETF's dont buy from public exchanges thus not affect the public prices

the benefits of ETF's is that regulated financial industry can invest in ETF's for banking/pension/investment funds where as those same funds cannot really invest in bitcoin direct due to regulatory grey area's

the benefit is that it means bitcoin itself does not get heavily regulated out of the hands of average joe, because the financial sector has their gateway into investments, without directly touching bitcoin, but still reaping some of the benefits of the price movements

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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September 09, 2019, 03:35:41 PM
 #15

ETF has the potential to eliminate security problems and the instability of the bitcoin market. Investors can still be introduced into the world of bitcoin and remain in a familiar and certainly regulated setting. Each ETF is bound to an index, and ETF performance tracks the performance of the underlying index. So the Bitcoin ETF offers a safer and more stable way for investors to experience the benefits of the Bitcoin market without plunging into the wild world of Bitcoin.

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September 09, 2019, 03:46:01 PM
 #16

Do you think it might just be approved?

To those bodies that will regulate cryptocurrency all these crypto technology doesn't matter and whether it defeats crypto purpose or not, they are not important since all they would see is the value in USD.  Price I think will still go up because the prices in exchanges still would be the first to look at.

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September 09, 2019, 04:36:36 PM
 #17

What do you mean, what censorship ?
ETF if a economical instrument and financial option , it allows certain investors to get in within existing legal framework.
Even more, in reality ETF with high probability will not allow to buy BTC directly ut some option that covers BTC price.

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September 09, 2019, 05:01:05 PM
 #18

I believe Bitcoin ETF is good for Bitcoin adoption and awareness.  Imagine huge company buying and holding Bitcoin to back up whatever asset they are selling. Many of us probably misunderstood ETF as a third party controlling our Bitcoin but I think Franky1 had a good explanation on how ETF works and why it gives a positive view on Bitcoin and Bitcoin market.

an ETF is NOT where you buy bitcoin and put them into a trusted custodian..
an ETF IS where a company buys thier own bitcoins. vaults them up as collateral of the company(assets) and then sell shares of their assets.
customers/investors of ETF's do not own the company nor bitcoins. they own shares that represent an allotment of coins.

the benefits people see is that instead of random people buying small amounts of coins on exchanges(not much movement in price) large ETF's buy large lumps of coins which can move the price.

the disadvantages people see is if the large ETF's dont buy from public exchanges thus not affect the public prices

the benefits of ETF's is that regulated financial industry can invest in ETF's for banking/pension/investment funds where as those same funds cannot really invest in bitcoin direct due to regulatory grey area's

the benefit is that it means bitcoin itself does not get heavily regulated out of the hands of average joe, because the financial sector has their gateway into investments, without directly touching bitcoin, but still reaping some of the benefits of the price movements

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September 09, 2019, 05:03:21 PM
 #19

I can'y say that Bitcoin ETF is very good or bad. But I am sure about one thing. If Bitcoin ETF is confirmed, it will make a dump on Bitcoin price and Bitcoin will continue to get closer to $ 20k.

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September 09, 2019, 07:44:40 PM
 #20

Hint : Most people actually don't care about full-control and anonymity.

Bitcoin ETF isn't completely bad, but if the community going to spend their time and money, IMO they should spend it on legality of Bitcoin as currency or payment method rather than ETF which don't bring any benefit (aside from  price boost).

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